Author Topic: Question about holding numbers  (Read 3250 times)

porkandapples

  • Joined Feb 2011
Question about holding numbers
« on: March 09, 2011, 12:19:28 pm »
I have read about the process of applying for a holding number etc but have a question i can't seem to find the answer to. The land we are looking at renting belongs to a nearby farm. Landowner wanted some reassurance that it won't affect them and their business at all and has asked me to look into it. They haven't kept any livestock on it for many many years. Presumably the holding number would still be mine despite the fact we don't own the land? Does the fact that it belongs to the farm, who will obviously have their own holding number effect it at all? Is it possible that the land already has a holding number for the farm in which case what is the process for changing that situation?

Hope that all makes sense and thanks again for all the input so far  :)

oaklandspigs

  • Joined Nov 2009
  • East Sussex
    • OaklandsPigs
Re: Question about holding numbers
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2011, 01:50:02 pm »
I will presume you are in England, sorry if you are not, others will no doubt know the detailed rules for Scotland, Wales or NI. 
The following is my current understanding, and I will repeat at the end, but you do need to chat this through with the RPA to ensure it is correct.
You can get a holding no. on any area of land that you have use of.  As far as I know, you do not need a formal tenancy agreement etc. to get this, as the CPH is merely a way of identifying a piece of land, and your name make you the responsible party for compliance with some (if not all) legislation affecting that CPH.
Land with a CPH can be spilt, or amalgamated (within certain parameters)  as needs arise and by informing the RPA. You can also “own” multiple CPH’s, as the CPH applies to the land, not to you, and a single CPH can apply to multiple parcels of land within 5 miles of each other  for sheep and 10 miles for cattle.
If this is not a new farm, it almost certainly has an existing CPH against it, and presumably you are not taking over all the land, just a part.  If so...
In your case, if the farmer wants to keep his rights to move animals on and off his bit of the farm, one suggestion would be for you to get a separate CPH for your part.  This will then mean that you are independent of each other for livestock movements, and if he decides at some future date to have animals, then he can go ahead.
However if you do this you must be able to move animals on and off your holding without them setting foot on his holding (and visa versa).  Eg you cannot unload in his yard and walk them down to your land, as the unloading will create a move to his land, and then a standstill will prevent them moving off his to yours for 20 days !!  As far as I know (and RPA should confirm) you can drive through his land to get to yours, but any loading or unloading must be done on your holding.  So you may want to look at how you would achieve this if this is the middle of a muddy field in winter, and you need to get a pig in or out.
Alternatively you could check that you could do this at a later date if he goes back into livestock, and get the current CPH transferred to you, so that you are responsible as you don’t need to split it immediately.  I suspect that he would be less happy with this, but if he has no livestock, then you could then unload in his yard, as you have the entire CPH.
Finally you will both need to ensure that this does not affect his Single Payment Scheme.  I would suggest to keep him happy, that you do a written rental agreement - doesn’t need to be complex, just state what you are renting, for how long, and what payments you are making, together with any responsibilities eg who pays for water used, hedge cutting, maintaining fencing and land restoration at the end (not a full list).  This could then also state that the land you rent is his on the appropriate deadlines (for 2011 may 16th in England, and May 15th for Scotland, Wales and NI) - in other words that you do not rent it on those dates – to Claim SPS the land must be at the Claimants “disposal” (ie the farmer if he is to receive payment) for the whole of the deadline day each year.  Again SPS is horrendously complex (it takes 115 pages to describe how the scheme works, and around the same again to explain what you need to do to comply!), and you will want to check that you do not affect this payment.  If he doesn’t claim SPS, then heave a big sigh!
I will re-state that all this is horribly complicated to set down as general principles, but take you proposal to the RPA and tell them what you plan to do.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 01:51:45 pm by oaklandspigs »
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ponyntrap

  • Joined Jul 2010
Re: Question about holding numbers
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2011, 02:11:00 pm »
We rent land in Scotland, it has a CPH and we have a graziers number, still a CPH but obviously for any movement records we have to state the CPH the animals are on.  The graziers number is so we are registered as having livestock.  Any animals, in our case, sheep that reproduce on the rented land have the flock number of the CPH they are on, we dont have our own flock number.  You would have to speak to AHO I imagine to get your graziers number and they will send you a pack that gives you all the info you need, including standstills, tagging (if required) and movement records and registers.

porkandapples

  • Joined Feb 2011
Re: Question about holding numbers
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2011, 02:18:33 pm »
Thank-you for taking the time to explain all of that. The land in question is a very small area totally seperate to the rest of the farm, it's not on the farm if you see what i mean it's just that the farm own it. So from what you say in theory it will be as simple as getting a seperate holding number for this piece of land. I will give then a call to talk it through though.

Thanks again  :)

welshlass181

  • Joined Jan 2011
Re: Question about holding numbers
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2011, 02:35:37 pm »
We used the field reg number to apply which in our area is a SN number.  All we had to do was go to the council and fill out a form and it was pretty much sorted from there.  We're in Wales and the field is 1 hect.  There should be no worries with holding numbers or to the farmer that owns the land.  There is a section on the form that asks if you own or rent the land.

Not sure if this helps but :)

 

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