The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: Paul and Caroline on December 22, 2016, 09:10:08 am
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Looking for help/guidance/advice re rats. We have now started seeing rats in our poultry enclosure when we take the food and water in at night. I am a bit confused as to what I am legally allowed to use to eradicate them - I don't have an Airgun and I couldn't hit a barn door if I was sitting in the handle even if I did have one, so I think I am going to have to look at the poison option unfortunately - can anybody offer any constructive advice please?
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Buy the bait blocks and nail them to pieces of wood so they can eat them but not drag them around. Have a look around and see where they have runs. Could be under your hut or in walls. If you can find these you can drop the bait directly into them. Place the bait where nothing else can get to it. Or buy traps and bait them but then you have to deal with a live rat.
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We've also had a rat problem this year, I know they're always around but once the wheat field was harvested we were seeing 3 or 4 at a time around the chickens' enclosure. We'd controlled them with poison before, using bait boxes in similar way to that described by Harmony. The problem was this time they just wouldn't take it. We came to the conclusion that there was too much other food around (including my sweet potato crop).
Anyway we rehomed some feral cats from RSPCA and they now live in the goat house where we'd also seen a couple of rats despite the goats' food being contained in metal bins. Now we haven't seen any live rats for some time, nor any rat poo around the chickens. I know this isn't a solution that would work for everybody but it certainly seems to have sorted our problem.
If you do use poison, and as I said that's what we did in the past, please make sure you check for dead rats regularly as the poison will also harm wildlife if they eat the corpse.
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Echo all of the above. There was a large rat in our garden last week in broad daylight, so out came the bait boxes which were filled with poison blocks and covered with lengths of timber and bricks. I'd suggest you get bags of 100 blocks or so, you'll get through that in no time. We also use several bait boxes. A bit of a cost but they last for ages. Keep putting the poison out until it no longer gets taken.
I've used little bags with rat poison in the past but they contain small pellets, the size of chicken feed, so I don't like using them as they're too easily strewn around and then eaten by other animals. They got eaten in no time, though, they smelled of something really nice (liquorice or something, can't quite remember).
A few years ago when we first got rats digging in I had to google what rat runs looked like 'cause I didn't know what had made those little tunnels. Soon learned to spot them from miles away ;) We've covered the floor of most of our runs with 1/2inch weldmesh which stops them digging under (the walls have the same mesh), we were horrified to see they can dig 3ft in one night! :o
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Be aware that the law on buying rat bait has changed now and unless you have done the rat bait course or are Farm Assured then you are limited on what bait you can buy- no more than 1.5kg for amateur use. We use bait bags normally pushed under right the house, rats need shelter so under houses/in walls, banks etc is normally where they hang out. Found a beauty dead one in my chicken enclosure the other day, glad he wasn't alive, we have some real lousters on the farm >:(
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One thing we have never risked anywhere near the chicken enclosure, or outside anywhere for that matter, is any kind of poison. We used to use large snap traps under ridge tiles but once caught a hedgehog and have never used them since.
We now stick to live traps and an air gun to despatch. A Crosman 2240, which is a gas powered full power .22 air pistol will cost £80 or less and a treadle trap will be around £30.
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Be aware that the law on buying rat bait has changed now and unless you have done the rat bait course or are Farm Assured then you are limited on what bait you can buy- no more than 1.5kg for amateur use. We use bait bags normally pushed under right the house, rats need shelter so under houses/in walls, banks etc is normally where they hang out. Found a beauty dead one in my chicken enclosure the other day, glad he wasn't alive, we have some real lousters on the farm >:(
Twizzel is quite right about how much you can buy unless you have "done the course" or our feed merchant asks for a farm assured number BUT you can buy as many 1.5 kg boxes as you need in any one go!
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If you can keep watch downwind and very quietly at dusk you'll probably be able to see where they're coming from. You can then pour a small amount of bait down the hole, say half a teacup, mixed with the pellets they're used to eating. Rats are neophobic but in my experience rarely pass up dinner when it's put in front of their noses. I put a few dead leaves in the entrance and a V-shaped ridge tile over the hole to stop birds taking the bait. I keep rebaiting every other night for a week, if the leaves are disturbed to show the nest is still in use. Then I stop so they'll hopefully start eating their store. If the leaves are still disturbed each night I carry on for another week. I've never had to do this for a third time.
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I notice you said - "when we take the food and water in at night." Presumably then you leave ad lib food out all day and then just remove what the birds haven't eaten at the end of the day. Therefore the rats have an all day food supply and you will therefore become the free cafe for all the rats in the area. Obviously there are rats there if you feed them or not. But the ready supply of food will encourage them to stay (and multiply) instead of moving on elsewhere to richer pickings. I would suggest then, just feeding the birds morning and evening - just as much as they will eat in one go.
You may think it's difficult to accurately assess their needs and worry about them going hungry. However, on average a laying bird needs about 2oz of meal/pellets per day. This = @ 1handful. I have Bluebells (a hybrid) and give them 2 heaped handfuls each in their feeder in the morning - I have small hands. This seems enough to last till late afternoon, so there is nothing left for the rats in the evening. They seem to lay alright on this amount but would need less if they weren't laying. If I were around in the afternoon I would give 2 feeds, ensuring the last was eaten before night time.
Obviously you need to get rid of the rats already there and I agree with what's been said about poisoning them.
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Rats,
What we have found is that its best to constantly manage the risk of rats to prevent them setting up home with us. Once you get to the point you actually see a rat they have been there a while and there will be more than one.
We live on a small holding and have a dozen or so hens, we are surrounded by arable farm land.
Mostly we are unbothered by rats but every now and again we will see evidence of their presence, often as mentioned by a poster above just after harvest when they have all been disturbed by the combining/ cultivation process on the fields.
We manage to keep them at bay using the following techniques :-
1.As far as possible make sure there are no food sources for them . (no food source = no rats)
• We store our hen food in bins with tight fitting lids which are always on unless we are using them.
• We have proper scoops for transferring food from the bins to buckets to minimise/eliminate spillage of food in the storage shed.
• New bags of food are transferred to the secure bins asap.
• In the hen hut after our last rat visitation we took the plunge and bought one of the Grandpa type feeders which means there is not an ab-lib supply of food for the rats in the hen hut. They work with a treddle and require the weight of a hen to open the feeder and access the food. http://www.grandpasfeeders.co.uk/products?gclid=CJ2No431h9ECFUI8GwodsmUM0Q (http://www.grandpasfeeders.co.uk/products?gclid=CJ2No431h9ECFUI8GwodsmUM0Q) There are a number of people now doing this kind of thing if you google them. We happened to pick ours up second hand at a farm sale. They are expensive..but weighed up against the cost of poison and the hen food you supply to the rats it’s a no brainer.
2. Have predators ready to eliminate new arrivals.
• A few feral cats (or any cats) knocking about is an excellent thing. We have about 3 or 4 at any point in time..a couple we have got from friends (domestic type) and a few which migrate from the farm across the field…that are feral and have adopted us as they get better fed here !. They are not allowed in the house but have access to plenty of sheds and are always fed there. I have seen them take rats. (quite honestly one cat would be enough.)
• Have a trap set at all times. Rats are wise creatures and are wary of anything new. So setting a trap after they’ve arrived takes time to be effective. I have a traditional type sprung trap (large mouse trap). To avoid animals i don’t want getting caught in it, it is positioned in the hen hut in a small wooden box (which I made from scrap timber), with a removable lid and a rat sized hole in 2 corners of the box. It has hen food dribbled around in the box. Rats love cover and this gives them it ..with a nasty surprise ! It is there all the time.
• I haven’t had to resort to poison…but if you do use proper plastic box applicators that again prevent access to other animals and do daily patrols for dead rats.
3. Have as little cover for them as possible.
• You will never stop rats getting under a hen hut…our hen huts are set up on blocks, so that the cats can get under too.
• Our nest boxes are set up off the floor of the hen hut…so cats can get under too.
• Our sheds all have an open door or window or bob hole where the cats can get in and out as they please…so they are always on patrol.
• As far as possible reduce cover in your sheds, leave gaps that fit cats when stacking /storing things, clear up loose bedding and old feed bags as you go along so places they can shelter and hide are eliminated.
Hope these thoughts are of help. cheers stu
One more..if you have a current infestation it could be worth getting someone with a terrier round.
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All good advice! I have a cage trap which I like, it's a live, multi catch type. It has an entrance like a lobster pot and then a trapdoor into the cage proper. I leave it open with food in it for a few days and then set it with food. Have caught a few. But then I shoot with air rifle.
Ditto fenn traps, caught a kitten and It was awful! They were set in a tunnel about 3" square, I never would have thought a tiny cat would go down there! I still have them, but don't think I'll ever use them again.
My goats got into a bait station a while ago and I had to look up the lethal doses for diff animals. I seem to remember reading that chickens can take a fair bit, but look it up yourself as I can't remember properly. Goats only had a wee bit and were fine. Contractor was VERY sorry!
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I was told if you catch a rat in a cage trap you should simply leave it there as it will lure others.
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Must be the time of year as I've just sat and watched a rat crawl out from under the shed and scamper through the avairy which houses my quails. Time to put some this advice into action!
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It's not rats with me, it's a mink ( or yet another juvenile otter ) climbing up the side of my pen this morning !.
Hens were in a right fangle, hopefully they'll be safe , unless it is an otter and bites through the mesh.
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It's not rats with me, it's a mink ( or yet another juvenile otter ) climbing up the side of my pen this morning !.
Hens were in a right fangle, hopefully they'll be safe , unless it is an otter and bites through the mesh.
Oh gosh. That IS a worry. I had a rate decimate my aviary bird population one by one once, but a mink and chickens....not a good mix. :-\
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Oh gosh. That IS a worry. I had a rate decimate my aviary bird population one by one once, but a mink and chickens....not a good mix. :-\
Unless it can bite through the weld mesh it won't get in, it could dig in I suppose but there are a lot of slabs to get under first so I'd spot any entrance holes before it managed that.
I'll put out my live trap and see what I catch.
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We have more rats than we can ignore so I'm just about to buy some traps - the live catch type.
I'd be glad of advice about what bait to use and how to encourage the rats to go in.
Thanks very much!
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We have more rats than we can ignore so I'm just about to buy some traps - the live catch type.
I'd be glad of advice about what bait to use and how to encourage the rats to go in.
Bait with what they normally eat (e.g. layers pellets) with something like wheat and make sure it's the only source of food through the night. Rats are neophobic so they may well ignore it for a week or two and use their feed stock first. Handle the trap with gloves so it doesn't smell of human. Once the alpha male and female eat the bait the rest of the colony will follow.
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Thanks MarchesFarmer, that's excellent.
I'm looking at ordering the Defender small rat and squirrel trap - is there any particular trap that's better or are they all the same?
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For stoats we set a Fenn trap, building a tunnel with bricks, and a woodtunnel the gamekeeper gave us. Since then caught mink and rats. Set along the wall side where the rats run, leave baited but not set till food goes regularly, then set, should catch fairly quickly. Also the giant 'mousetrap' type again put blocks round so innocent critters don't get caught.
Another idea I read was to leave bran in a bucket, when they've got used to going in for it, put water in and float bran on top.
Hopefully our cat keeps them down, occasionally a big one moves in, cat doesn't like going in barn.
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Treadle traps can be baited with chicken feed scattered on the bottom. Make sure nothing gets under the treadle plate and stops it from moving. One Winter we left a rabbit trap out baited with apples. About two weeks later and I spotted a rabbit in the trap, but when I got closer I realised it was the biggest rat I've ever seen (with the exception of the Coypu the dog cornered last month).
Traps with a hanging bait on a hook do well with a slice of corn-on-the-cob. This has been bay far our most successful method of live trapping.
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Can rats climb trees? There are definitely rats at the bottom of an apple tree in the garden but the dog spends ages looking up into the branches of the tree with the same stance and tail wagging as when she spots them elsewhere. Maybe she's confused but I wonder if they run up the tree when she's after them at the bottom?!
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Can rats climb trees? There are definitely rats at the bottom of an apple tree in the garden but the dog spends ages looking up into the branches of the tree with the same stance and tail wagging as when she spots them elsewhere. Maybe she's confused but I wonder if they run up the tree when she's after them at the bottom?!
Grey squirrel?
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It's not a squirrel Penninehillbilly, and i can't actually see anything when I look where the dog is staring! I think perhaps the rat runs back into a hole to get away from the dog and she thinks it's run up the tree?! But she really stares up into the tree and it's made me worry that we have particularly agile and acrobatic rats!
The live catch traps have just been delivered so hopefully we can start getting on top of the problem...
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The dog will still be able to smell a squirrel, even if it jumped to another tree. Rats can climb most things but generally prefer ground level nests. We've had nests in old rabbit holes, piles of stone, under pallets with haybales stored on top, under sheds and chicken houses and under sheets of tin that stop the chickens scratching the muck heap all over the yard (this is particularly popular as it's warm next to the decomposing muck!) Once you know where to look around your property it saves a lot of time as new rat colonies that set up camp once the crops are off the adjoining fields tend to go for the same sites.
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Can rats climb trees? There are definitely rats at the bottom of an apple tree in the garden but the dog spends ages looking up into the branches of the tree with the same stance and tail wagging as when she spots them elsewhere. Maybe she's confused but I wonder if they run up the tree when she's after them at the bottom?!
Yes they can, I watched two rats scamper up the tree outside my living room to get at a bird feeder.
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That's not good news Celli although I'm pretty sure it's not squirrels here as we never see them in our garden or field. I'm not going to stand under the apple tree until we've got the rat situation well under control!
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We very rarely see squirrels, but they are about, just the other day I walked down by our old beech trees and there was one there. Pity I didn't have the gun. Been down 3 times since and not seen it.
Dog once 'treed' one, stood underneath wagging his tail. left him sat there, came back, bang. One pest less.
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Have used the Defender cage for the last two nights and caught a rat each night.
Which brings me to the next question - how do we dispose of the dispatched rats?
Thanks
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Have used the Defender cage for the last two nights and caught a rat each night.
Which brings me to the next question - how do we dispose of the dispatched rats?
Thanks
When you say dispatched do you mean already dead? If so then bury them in a place away from water, I usually pop the dead rats into the flower borders and bury them deep and that is ok for the soil. But if not dead surely you could put a bullet in their heads from an air rifle? or alternatively let the dog kill them or a cat. If that doesn't work, then drop a stone on their heads and that usually kills them, or use a shovel and chop off their heads or bash their skulls in, do it quickly though. Sorry if this sounds gruesome, but once caught you can't let it free.
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Thanks Waterbuffalofarmer - we're using the air rifle - it's what to do with them once they're dead.
I'm not sure the flower beds would work - the dog is so keen on catching the rats i think she'd dig them up. I just wondered if there was a correct way to dispose of them.
Not part of this thread, but I do have another question - we have some (donkey) feed from last winter which we need to dispose of, it's in a metal bin but we've bought a fresh sack, but not sure how to dispose of the old stuff either. Obviously want to avoid it attracting more rats!
Thanks
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We put dead ones in a supermarket bag-for-life (yeah, I know...) and then in the wheelie bin. Beware in the summer, though, you don't want them in the bin for a fortnight in warm weather :yuck:
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Thanks Eve. I do have a vague recollection that you can put deceased rats in the wheelie bin although it does seem weird. Do you put them in the non-recycling bin?? I suppose wherever the recycling is dumped there will be rats all over it soon enough.
We were thinking of cremation in one of metal incinerator dustbins - is that okay or a bad idea?
Thanks
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Dead rats in black bin bags in domestic waste is allowed (as is dead cats). They with either go to landfill or get incinerated.
Don't put them in the food waste bin for composting as you never know what they are carrying disease-wise.
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Yeah, there are lots of ways to get rid of rats aside from poison.
I'm quite surprised people on this forum are condoning the use of poison.
It enters the food chain- not to mention the horrible death it causes!
Trap em, shoot em or set the cat on them -but don't poison them!!
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Can rats climb trees? There are definitely rats at the bottom of an apple tree in the garden but the dog spends ages looking up into the branches of the tree with the same stance and tail wagging as when she spots them elsewhere. Maybe she's confused but I wonder if they run up the tree when she's after them at the bottom?!
They most certainly can - they run up and down my cypress trees in the front paddock!