The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: macgro7 on December 21, 2016, 02:33:27 pm
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Hello everyone!
I hope goat keepers are in better mood than poultry keepers (avian flu...).
My question this time is about advice on buying first goats. I saw some beautifull toggenburg and boers at the cattle market yesterday but as I don't have much experience with goats I'd rather buy from a breeder privately. I've been buying poultry at that market for several years and know what to look out for - with goats I don't know and don't want to buy a cull animal while wanting a family milker/pet.
Would you suggest buying two kids straight after weening or nanny in milk or pregnant nannies (I actually saw two beautiful pregnant nannies for sale on preloved the other day)?
I'm thinking kids would be good because you can learn with them before you can milk them (at least year or two from getting them).
Opinions?
Second question is about the milking system the lady in the article in link below is using.
Basically she let's the kids/calves spend all day with their mother but locks them up for the night and milks the mother before letting the kids suckle. Obviously you won't get as much milk as milking twice a day but you would have much more time for yourself. Anyone tried that?
http://www.theprairiehomestead.com/2013/03/how-to-milk-once-a-day.html (http://www.theprairiehomestead.com/2013/03/how-to-milk-once-a-day.html)
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From my early experience, I went for kids so I could have a year of learning about looking after goats without having to worry about the complications of birthing and milking. I don't regret this at all and have learnt so much from my girls, now we have just gone through mating and looking forward to the next stage next year.
I think a lot is personal preference and how much time you have, and how much of the deep end you wish to jump. Many say that getting an experienced nanny is useful as they pretty much know what they are doing but I wanted to take it in stages and wasn't in a hurry for milk.
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It's really down to personal preference, do you want to wait 2 year till they are milkers or develop a bond with kids and teach them your ways. This is my experience: I started with a 2nd kidder milker and and a kid. It was hard going when milking for the first time but you will have that anyway till your hands get in shape. My milker was very well behaved and was so easy to manage being well trained and done it all before. The kid was a nightmare and due to my inexperience got into bad habits quickly.Now I know how to train and manage youngsters and young milkers I have no problems. Research what kind of dairy goat as there are many with different quality's. Look at the British Goat Society website it has loads of info. Also links to local goat clubs of which they can give you hands on advice and contacts for the type of goat you want.
I have tried the half and half system, I have had it work well and also a disaster, I have found it often depends on the individual character of the goat. First time kids shut off at night then milked the milker in the morning and gave the kids some milk in a bottle then they all went out together. Just check milker empty at night. Gradually shut them off to wean them. Next time I did that I wanted to keep the kids and run the milker through. Disaster they would not wean despite being seperate for 6 months. So I had a goatling who would suckle her mother if she got the chance only way to solve was to dry off the milker and put back in kid and said goatling milker now so solved problem, but now the daughter can bullied by the mother. Other time I tried leaving kids on and stripping out if required. A month after everything going well i noticed kid getting hungry so gave it milk then the second kid did the same, but was a nightmare trying to get the 2nd kid to take milk from a bottle. The milker decided she preferred me to hand milk her rather than her kids. I have also experience the milker not wanting to let down her milk or be milked easily by me as she wanted to keep her milk for her kids. Now I just bottle feed everything and milk twice a day so much less hassle for me and I have friendly well trained kids and milkers, stress free weaning and they still have a bond with their mothers who teach the kids grazing Plus I have more milk to divide up instead of milkers drying off to what the kids taking.
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Much easier to start off with an adult milker (in milk) and preferably another milker or a goatling (either can be put in kid) and running the milker through. Milkers with kids only often get quite stressed - they do better with another "adult" goat as company. Like humans they do better with company their own age...
Kids that are only reared with other kids and (most importantly) don't graze with adult goats (herd leader) from the start do not learn that they are indeed goats and look to the human leader to provide them with things to do. Often end up shouting at the gate for human and/or jumping to come and join you...
Often difficult to get good milkers, kids more readily available for obvious reasons.
Also always better to start off with three goats rather than just two...
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Definitely agree with Anke get a trio of goats, there has been a few people just now desperately looking for a companion goat as one has just died and end up with a distraught single goat. Older ones best if you can get them.
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Originally I was considering smaller breed whether (pygmy or bagot) and a larger dairy breed nanny (saanen or toggenburg or nubian or guernsey).
What do you think about that? Or is it better to have the same gender? Let's say 2-3 nannies?
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Gender mix isn't usually a problem but if you had 2 of one breed and just 1 of another breed you can get problems because goats are often racist and will bully the one that is a different breed.
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Lol
So they are not sexism by racist haha
Sheep seem to be the same.
What about size difference?
Would you get problems from having small pygmy with a large breed?
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Yes if the goats come from bigger herd of only big goats and are not used to pygmies... Just get Guernsey types and you will not be overwhelmed with milk anyway.
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I wouldn't be averse to buying from the market if you can talk to the owner and find out about the goat. About 25 years I bought a lovely toggenberg from Selby market. I'll always remember the owner standing in the pen with Katie the goat, as they were both equally pregnant. Anyway, I got talking, found out all about Katie and ended up buying her. She turned out to be a lovely goat - very placid and a pleasure to milk; and I'm still friends with her owner.
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I wouldn't be averse to buying from the market if you can talk to the owner and find out about the goat. About 25 years I bought a lovely toggenberg from Selby market. I'll always remember the owner standing in the pen with Katie the goat, as they were both equally pregnant. Anyway, I got talking, found out all about Katie and ended up buying her. She turned out to be a lovely goat - very placid and a pleasure to milk; and I'm still friends with her owner.
That's a different story!
I only I knew who the owner was I could at least ask them why they are selling her!
I saw a beautiful toggenburg with pedigree sold for £60 once. Most people who come to this market are big sheep buyers who don't care about goats.
Cheapest one I saw was goat with kid for... £15!
Just saw three lovely goats for sale. Two are pure golden guernsey (mother and daughter). The other one is mixed with British alpine.
http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/115977703/3-female-goats-for-sale.html?link=%2Fsearch%3Fkeyword%3DGuernsey%2Bgoat%26sectionId%3D2188 (http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/115977703/3-female-goats-for-sale.html?link=%2Fsearch%3Fkeyword%3DGuernsey%2Bgoat%26sectionId%3D2188)
That's the sort of goat I'd like or even large dairy cross pygmy.
It's a shame we don't have nigerian dwarf goats on this side of the Atlantic.
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We keep Boers and Golden Guernseys.
I personally would buy from a private breeder with a known health status. Alternatively from a sale where the catalogue is available prior and enquiries can be made with the owner i.e Rare Breed Sales. I would ask your vet about health status prior to purchase. My vet advised me to get goats which are from a known herd health status for CAE, CLA, Johnes Disease and Enzootic Abortion. Once bought in these things cannot be easily or cheaply removed. Incidentally they are vets for a very large commercial dairy goat herd so I am fortunate with their experience.
You need to decide if you want pedigree or not. If pedigree then see paperwork prior to purchase. Do the tag numbers match?
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I would also advice against getting a dairy goat crossed with a Boer. I did and ended up with goats who had fishtail teats (very common in Boers who are meat goats so it's not a problem). Even my girl who did not have a fishtail gave birth to one who had it. It's not always present at birth but starts a few weeks later,
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Just saw three lovely goats for sale. Two are pure golden guernsey (mother and daughter). The other one is mixed with British alpine.
http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/115977703/3-female-goats-for-sale.html?link=%2Fsearch%3Fkeyword%3DGuernsey%2Bgoat%26sectionId%3D2188 (http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/115977703/3-female-goats-for-sale.html?link=%2Fsearch%3Fkeyword%3DGuernsey%2Bgoat%26sectionId%3D2188)
That's the sort of goat I'd like or even large dairy cross pygmy.
It's a shame we don't have nigerian dwarf goats on this side of the Atlantic.
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I am almost certain that you won't get much milk from any of them on Preloved.... check out ukgoats for stock.... and if you go for pre-loved ask to see paperwork.... or join Golden Guernsey Goat society and get stock from there.
And agree with MGM wrt Boer Crosses (and always worth checking out ANY goat you buy for teat faults - they make it almost impossible to milk...)
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I suspect I did many of the things most would warn you against when I got my goats. I got them from preloved and they weren't in great shape and I felt a bit sorry for them. I got 2 in milk and 2 yearlings. I have been very lucky, the milkers are anglo nubians (sort of) and are amazingly good milkers of fantastically rich yummy milk. They are friendly and easy to manage. The yearlings are now almost 4 and have all kidded and milk well (not as good as the nubians but good enough).
Not sure what I'm trying to say as I love my preloved goats and have not regretted them for a moment. Having experienced milkers really helped when I didn't know what I was doing and they were already a happy little gang so no fighting. Not sure I would take the risk again as problems can be really hard to manage and much easier to get from a reputable breeder to know that you're not introducing problems. Then again, my OH has just had 3 months off work after getting knocked over by my very healthy, pedigree, AN who is beautiful but more than a little highly strung and managed to shatter his shoulder!
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PS. I milk one a day and it works really well for me.
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You see... my problem is I don't have a favourite breed of anything! I love lots of breeds for chickens ducks geese turkeys goats sheep cows snakes lizards! You name it!
If I could I would probably have a zoo! Lol
I really wish there was someone who could actually show me how to choose good goats in real life or perhaps come with me to have a look at some. I do have experience with sheep or poultry but never had a dairy animal!
Anyway! For now I will finish my fences and need to get rid of one large yew tree, put a shed up. Just finished painting the house so will be actually moving to there! Imagine - I spent TWO YEARS living with my in laws when our house was getting done.
I'm sooooooo glad we are finishing now! I can finally do my goat yard lol
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Macgro7 there are Nigerian Dwarf goats this side of the Atlantic. I have a couple of kids born this year and I intend to mate the female next year with a plan to milk her after that. I didn't realise that they're so rare.
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How about joining your local goat club. Someone there would be able to show you how to check over a goat and what to look for. You could also meet a range of breeds if there are a few members and you may find someone who has stock for sale.
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Macgro7 there are Nigerian Dwarf goats this side of the Atlantic. I have a couple of kids born this year and I intend to mate the female next year with a plan to milk her after that. I didn't realise that they're so rare.
Are you sure they are not just pygmies?
I saw some on preloved ones but I'm not convinced they are nigerian dwarf.
I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in small dairy goats
How about joining your local goat club. Someone there would be able to show you how to check over a goat and what to look for. You could also meet a range of breeds if there are a few members and you may find someone who has stock for sale.
That's a good idea. Checked on the British goat society website and the closest one is Nottinghamshire goat society - 45 miles away. I'll message them and see what happens
Its a shame there's no leicester goat club!
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As far as I know they are Nigerian dwarf goats, they're finer boned than pygmies in my opinion although I'm definitely no expert. The people I bought them from certainly think they're NIgerian dwarves.
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I managed to contact a goat breeder near us. They are kidding in mid February and late March/April.
He said they will have kids available for bottle feeding.
They are mixture of saanen, toggenburg, alpine and guernsey.
What do you think of that?
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Also the billy who fathered all this year's kids is 3/4 saanen and 1/4 boer.
They are definitely gonna be some interesting colours there. I'll ring him tomorrow to ask when writing can have a proper look
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A word of warning about boers or boer crosses. I bought a five week old kid a few years ago. I checked her carefully and she looked perfect but a few weeks later she developed a fish tail teat. I posted on here about it and was told that boers are prone to it. She had two kids, one of which had a split teat and the other was ok so I kept her and bred from her. Her daughter was born with a fist tail as well. It is hereditary and can carry on through the generations. I am now stopping breeding from her and sending her daughter for slaughter.
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Sorry for more silly questions but you guys are the only goat people I know!
What if I take just two wethers for pets?
I know they would be easier to feed and won't get in heat etc.
The question is how big do standard size dairy wethers get? Saanen cross British alpine I'm taking about.
Will they be much bigger than females?
As big as full billy?
How much would they eat on average? I've read if you supply all their food it would be around 25 bales of hay per year per goat? Is that more or less right?
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Sorry for more silly questions but you guys are the only goat people I know!
What if I take just two wethers for pets?
I know they would be easier to feed and won't get in heat etc.
The question is how big do standard size dairy wethers get? Saanen cross British alpine I'm taking about.
Will they be much bigger than females?
As big as full billy?
How much would they eat on average? I've read if you supply all their food it would be around 25 bales of hay per year per goat? Is that more or less right?
BIG (and possibly even bigger than a billy, as with good feeding regime but no work to do....)
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https://youtu.be/NIU_YedRgnw
Yeah I was wondering whether those goats are so massive or that guy is so tiny!
They are huge!!!
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He's not tiny. those are average sized dairy goats. I have four goats who are zero grazed and get through just over two bales of hay a week between them. Iff you have grazing for them, they need less hay. They will also enjoy a small amount of goat milk or calf nuts and any vegetables or branches you can give them. Goats know how to eat.
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Ok thanks you!
May I know how big is your enclosure for zero grazed goats?
If anyone knows where to get or has some spare males of smaller breeds like guernsey or bagot I might take those instead. Just to get used to taking care for goats then in the future might expand to millers of perhaps standard large breeds.
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If you are able to travel to just north of Doncaster I have so.easy male gg x boer kids which might suit you. Or if want gg I can sort you out there too I expect. ThNks
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Doncaster is actually not that far from us - 60ish miles.
How big would go x boer get? Have you got some pictures of them?
I'm going to see those guys tomorrow:
http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/116205698/goats-for-sale.html?link=%2Fsearch%3Fkeyword%3DGoat (http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/116205698/goats-for-sale.html?link=%2Fsearch%3Fkeyword%3DGoat)
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Ok thanks you!
May I know how big is your enclosure for zero grazed goats?
If anyone knows where to get or has some spare males of smaller breeds like guernsey or bagot I might take those instead. Just to get used to taking care for goats then in the future might expand to millers of perhaps standard large breeds.
I've not actually measured but it's about 5m x 7m plus the shed which is 2m x 3m. I have four in there at the moment but two is a better number.