The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: kris on June 29, 2012, 11:09:04 pm
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hey i have a lot of cade lambs given o me by a couple local farmers i have over 100 lol
but i have had a rough time with it i have had pasteruella pneumonia
cos of the crap weather they have been vaccinate by ovac plus
and have been wormed they are out on grass pasture and i have been loosing some daily
the vet said pulp kidney but they have been vaccinated any more ideas please need some i have looked at possibility's not having much luck
what ever it is its not affecting the ewes and there lambs we have
any ideas ??
sorry for the spelling ???
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Is it bloat? Cocci? are they scouring?
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Not heard of Ovac plus....? Lambivac and Heptovac P are the ones usually used :-\ Sounds very odd.....
How old are they all? have they got scour, if so could be cocci.....
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Wormer resistant worms? There are worms that can kill very quickly if the weather is favourable. Usually just after a dry spell. Nematode something or other. The vaccinations should have prevented pasteurella aswell as pulpy kidney. What about fluke? Did they get two vaccinations?
Get a post mortem done asap, that may be the only way to tell.
Hope you can get to the bottom of this before you lose any more.
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Nematodyrus - shouldn't knock em over that quick.
I have the strangest feeling Ovivac doesnt do the colostridial diseases, I'll have to check...
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Hi,
Really hope you don't loose any more, but if you do drop it into your local large animal vets and get them to have a look inside it. This way they can know for sure on their diagnosis of pulp kidney.
Good luck!
Tim
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ovivac-p is a cutdown version of heptavac-p, can't remember which diseases it doesn't do but i think it may be some of the clostridials. Can't check on NOAH myself right now, am on mobile.
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Ovivac P: vaccine for the active immunisation of lambs as an aid in the control of pulpy kidney, tetanus, braxy and blackleg. An opaque fluid vaccine combined 4 in 1 clostridial plus pasteurella vaccine.
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[/size]Heptavac P Plus: sheep and lamb vaccine for the active immunisation of sheep as an aid in the control of lamb dysentery, pulpy kidney, struck, tetanus, braxy, blackleg, black disease and clostridial metritis caused by the above listed organisms. An opaque fluid vaccine combined 7 in 1 clostridial plus pasteurella vaccine.
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[/size]So Ovivac does do pasturella....
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[/size]Hmm...
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We've been talking about worms on another thread. There is worm resistance. It may be worth sending a specimen. You can get a kit from your vet or buy one online from Supplies for Smallholders (link below)
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I was told that the one of the first signs of nematodyrus is death. Thanks for the conformation of spelling Steve.
We had some lambs a few years ago that were infected with reistant worms.We found two dead over a coupleof dayas and I thought I was going to lose more. Thought we were okay because they had been wormed.
Vet diagnosed the worm problem and told us to use the injection ( cydectin) and also terramycin injection (some had a temperature) and vitamins to help them recover.
Would expect them to have dirty bottoms if it is a worm problem!
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To be honest, a few dead every day is classic for pasturella, but they have been vaccinated....
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When were they vaccinated kris?
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Ah Ovivac P.....!!! Would still suspect pasturella or if not cocci....
PM and dung samples I think!
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thank you guys for all the replys has my brain going over time they where wormed 4 weeks ago and none showing dirty bottoms they seem to be fine one minuet walking round then dead the next the ovac was complete the second dose 3-4 weeks ago they also had dysect fly treatment as the same and have been dagged
the vet surgested PM but the knacker man had been already so have to see how it plays out the vet surgested boltoulisum because we had a lot of hens and used the much over the land in feb to get a good grass crop for winter when we first turned out the ewes with there lambs we had some losses but we put that down to the s**t weather and the fact they where all ewe lambs
we have lost so far over 60% of the cade lambs we had
the wormer is a group 3 ivomectin
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Since you state that you have had pneumonia in this group already , my money would be on this, it can kill in a matter of hours or weeks, if you treated with drugs long term damage can still be done. Pulpy kidney tends to kill only the very best lambs and only the odd case NORMALY . IT is very easy to do a quick PM your self ( and interesting ) for pneumonia /pulpy kidney / fluke. When you vaccinate you must give the right amount 2ml repeat 4-6wks later before any protection, this will NOT CURE any any problems NOR does it impart 100% protection , in the case of pneumonia their are numerous types and the vaccines only protect against the most common You say you wormed 4 weeks ago please get your vet to do a worm count quickly as NEMATODIRUS can kill in very severe cases with no outward signs , group 1 wormers are better in this case
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Sounds like you are doing everything you can, so unfortunately you won't know until the next one dies and you get the PM done.
Is it possible to move them off theis land if you think it might be the chicken muck connection?
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Cade lambs are notorious for dying.
A competent immune system is a prerequisite for a vaccine to be fully effective so if they hadn't had colostrum or something else caused them to not have a great start in life then maybe the vaccine was less effective.
I mean - you've done EVERYTHING on the preventables list haven't you - worming, vaccinating , feeding etc.
Very very unfortunate. I think with 60% PMs and poo samples definitely the order of the day.
So sorry for all your losses. :bouquet: :bouquet:
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i am so sorry to hear about your lambs. We have just lost our baby boy who was fit and well this morning. please do post if you find anything out about the cause.
does anyone know of a good video/tutorial on what to look for in an autopsy. Is it legal to do it ourselves? I am worried about the warm weather/flies etc and I cannot take him to the hunt today or tommorrow as on the road for work.
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From the look of whats usually in our hunt kennels deposit bins, its been left more than a couple of days, so I wouldn't worry.
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when I read up it looks more and more like pulpy kidney as he was well fed, died suddenly and did not get his mums colostrum very much when he was born. We are going to try to take a look but I think I need a few more beers before I can try.
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The basic anatomy of a sheep is the same as us ,if a sheep could stand :-J eg liver right side under ribs / lungs in the chest cavity / kidney down below liver , healthy colours are just as you would buy at the butchers . Sharp knife ,gloves , and maybe dab of vick under nose
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My money is on Coccidia as my cade lambs from a farmer all had this recently and it seems like all your description is exactly the same as what mine had. Vecoxan them immediately...all mine sprang back up after and are growing and fattening back up well. A total turn around! I wish you all the luck. x
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Cocci lambs often scour heavily though and theres no mention of that.....
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Did PM. No sign of abnormal kidneys. There was a big watery growth on his liver about 1 inch long (liver fluke?) Could not see anything untoword apart from a very gassy belly (bloat??). I am taking the liver part and the kidneys to the vet today to see what he says as well as a bit of bowel to look for worms but I couldn't see anything obvious. Will ask about Cocci just in case
Thanks for all your advice.. xxx
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Well done :thumbsup: the watery growth is probably the gall bladder, if the kidney is firm then not pulpy ( mushy when squeezed ) kidney , liver nice purple and smooth perfect , cocci lambs - not growing , loosing weight , no bloom on fleece , very dark even blood stained scour, waste away rather than sudden death . For pneumonia you need to go up into the chest cavity ,there is a membrane across the chest behind this is the lungs these should be salmon pink , if red or liver colour with blood stained fluid in chest cavity then pneumonia. The gassy belly is normal all dead things tend to blow up.
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Vet gave us virtually no feedback. I gave him the kidneys, a bit of liver and a bit of bowel and asked him to confirm no pulpy kidney and no liver fluke. He said he could not tell without seeing whole animal. He said maybe e coli infection. Could that have been from a not sterile bottle? So now I am still at a loss and had to cut the lamb up for nothing. :-(
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With this weather I would immediately assume Pasteurella & Cocci. Pasteurella can strike even if vaccinated........cocci can strike simply because they have been moved. Both diseases are triggere by trauma which in this case could be the move.
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Youd have thought the vet would have been slightly more concerned that 60 out of 100 of your lambs were dead - Id be going spare at that number. >:(
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With pastuerela and cocci, is there anything I can give to prevent others getting it apart from the course of heptovac P which they have already started. Ps very sorry to have hijacked this post a bit x
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Vet gave us virtually no feedback. I gave him the kidneys, a bit of liver and a bit of bowel and asked him to confirm no pulpy kidney and no liver fluke. He said he could not tell without seeing whole animal. He said maybe e coli infection. Could that have been from a not sterile bottle? So now I am still at a loss and had to cut the lamb up for nothing. :-(
:sofa:
I have to say that if somebody had expected me - in my deputy coroner days - of making any sort of professional assessment based on a few body parts extracted from a PM room - they would have got a roar from me that even Sir Lancelot Spratt would have baulked at.
I think a 60% fatality rate is REALLY serious - even for cade lambs. I would strongly recommend a formal veterinary PM if another lamb dies in similar circumstances.
How much have you involved the vet so far???
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Its worth mentioning that vaccinating won't cure a sheep with pasturella already. I'm fairly sure Alamycin LA covers those bacteria, but I cant remeber. I'll go out tho the meds shed when its stopped raining....
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Suziequeue - The basic pm will not give a definative answer but it does quickly show any of the three problems . The last time i did a formal pm , with traveling to AYR and back plus disposal ( 3 YR'S ago ) cost £250 diagnosis inconclusive , tried the vet and she did the same as do plus sent off samples , cost £150 again inconclusive, so an individuals choice.
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Cocci lambs often scour heavily though and theres no mention of that.....
That is true Steve but when mine had cocci (and all the cades had it) only 2 were scoured but all 9 affected.
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Suziequeue - The basic pm will not give a definative answer but it does quickly show any of the three problems . The last time i did a formal pm , with traveling to AYR and back plus disposal ( 3 YR'S ago ) cost £250 diagnosis inconclusive , tried the vet and she did the same as do plus sent off samples , cost £150 again inconclusive, so an individuals choice.
Yeah - it was a bit harsh - sorry Plt102....... but I did like the Lancelot Spratt vision ;D ;D
Last time we had a PM done I took the sheep down to the yard in a wheelbarrow because the vet was already there PMing a bull. I don't think they charged but didn't send any samples. Provisional diagnosis was encephalitis of some description since all other organs were normal and she did have nystagmus prior to being despatched but as we had used a bolt there wasn't much to go on......
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Just want to clarify that I am the one who only lost one lamb not the person who started the thread with 60 percent. So that's probably why my vet wasn't as concerned etc. I was just frustrated that he couldn't tell me if the big grey bag on the liver was liver fluke and could not tell me that the normal looking kidneys mean no pulpy kidney. I Sorry for the confusion.
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I am a :turkey:
;D ;D
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I was just frustrated that he couldn't tell me if the big grey bag on the liver was liver fluke and could not tell me that the normal looking kidneys mean no pulpy kidney. I Sorry for the confusion.
GALL BLADDER ???
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Yep gall bladder. Funny how I find out more from this forum than from a vet :-) So no fluke as the rest of liver looked perfect and no pulpy kidney. Looks like ill just keep my fingers crossed it doesn't happen again.
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Did you slice the liver or the gall bladder. If you've got mature fluke that's where they'll be.
Dans
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I sliced the liver in a few places and no signs of parasites. All looked like you would get at butcher. Didn't slice the gall bladder. I took a photo of the liver and kidney so ill put it on here when I get time