The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: smudger on February 05, 2012, 12:19:11 pm
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I'd already decided I am not going to castrate our ram lamb but I was going to dock their tails on basis that the flystrike risk outweighed the pain issue with tail docking. I have left it to the last day (put it off?) and if I am going to do it, I need to dock before 10am tomorrow for the ewe lamb (the one who was poorly as per my posting earlier this week). However, now having second thoughts.
I couldn't find anything posted before when I searched on forum, so apologies if it has been discussed before.
I came across this on web search:
http://www.fawc.org.uk/pdf/report-080630.pdf (http://www.fawc.org.uk/pdf/report-080630.pdf)
Quote: Before considering the welfare implications of the various methods used to castrate and
tail dock lambs, we should like to reiterate our previous comment that, “…at the outset, we
wish to state that all farmers should consider carefully the necessity for performing any
mutilation on sheep and we hope that as many as possible will choose to avoid tail docking
and castration”..
The lambs are Greyface Dartmoors, so woolly. I'm at 900ft on edge of Exmoor. Is it realistic to think I can manage flystrike without docking? Does anyone give pain relief?
Thanks for any advice / opinions.
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Having tailed over 1000 sheep I do not think it is cruel, esp if done in first couple of days. Having seen the results of fly strike gone unnoticed under a non muckt but long tail (not one of mine) I think a moments discomfort far outweighs the awfulness of strike!
You may be in a good place to avoid strike but we are 900ft up on the Blackdowns ...probably facing you....and we would not risk it....
If my sheep were up on the high moor most of the time I might think differently as they would need their tails and flies are not usually a problem!
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definitely dock, but not too short. after 30 years, i've never known a lamb take any notice of tail docking, unless you trap a nerve. if that happens clip, or cut the ring off with a craft knife and after giving it a while to recover, start again.
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I docked my Roughs, the length to their hocks when they were lambs. This gave them the warmth of a tail in winter, but not the filthy wool that attracts flies, as they can hold that length of tail up and out of the way when necessary. I would always do it, but not too short. To be honest, beyond the first 'oww, what have you done to my tail', it doesn't seem to bother them.
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I dock all my GFDs, but leave the ram lambs entire. I tend to dock the males slightly shorter than the females, whilst still preserving legal modesty! If done whilst ewes and lambs are still penned up together, you can keep them in whilst the lamb recovers from the discomfort.
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I dock all of mine (apart from the ones who shouldn't docked) as I've lost a lamb to flystrike and have had to treat many other severely affected ones, including my pony - who's tail I had to totally shave off as the maggots had eaten his entire dock :P, I have never seen so many maggots in one place it was horrendous! Docking tails if done properly isn't a risk to life like flystrike is. The thing with leaving tails long, if the sheep has scours on growing grass it will attract the flies and the area under the dock is a perfect breeding ground for them.
I dock to about three fingers' length.
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Thanks for the comments. Deed is done and as much as I have provaricated and waivered and put it off (much to husband's annoyance), I have to say the act of doing it (ie picking them up and holding them and releasing the ring) seem to cause more distress than the period afterwards. I have erred on the longer length, probably 1-1.5" below the triangle flap.
I was surprised that no one responded to say they don't dock.....
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Well done.
Like everyone else here, we dock. We don't castrate though. TBH, it doesn't seem to distress them unduly and, as everyone else said, it's a lesser evil than fly strike (although the two cases of strike we've had weren't in the tail region ::)).
I do hate to see sheep docked too short though. Saw a few at shows last year that were probably illegal.
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Agree,think you have done the right thing. These things are not absolutes, docking right or wrong without considering the context of the reason why it is done - it is about the balance of risk of something much worse against the small discomfort now. In some locations, where flies are not too much of an issue, there is a case for not docking.
But having seen a sheep be fine one day and almost dead the next from fly strike, I am in favour of docking long tailed sheep. The only proviso is I do worry whether docking may discourage efforts going into breeding out long tails but thats a wider macro question.
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Right choice. Both you and your sheep will be grateful next summer when they do not have dirty long tails. I made the mistake with my first GFD's of docking too long ( I was nervy) and now they are a devil to keep clean and safe from from fly strike. The hair grows so long beyond the tail: I am forever trimming it away. If the lamb is strong, then I would do it asap as it seems to affect them less.
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Interesting !
Those of us who keep rare breeds do so because one day their genetics will be useful to mainstream breeds. This is one of the obvious ones - many rare breeds belong to the Northern Shorttailed group, which have naturally short tails. So it needs some enterprising breeder to produce a sheep with the short tail of the NST, but the commercial qualities needed for fat lambs. :sheep: :sheep:
With an increasing public interest in animal welfare to produce sheep which have short tails without needing to be docked surely must be a winner. A good candidate for gene transfer ?
We don't dock tails - because we don't have to :thumbsup:
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Hi Smudger :wave:
Well done for "doing the deed" I am sure the Dartmoors will thank you during the summer months when the flies are about.
I have been docking tails too this morning.
Your post --- Gives me an excuse for posting a picture a Greyface Dartmoor lamb !!!! ::)(http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae26/thomsett_bucket/lambs065.jpg)
They are such fun sheep ;) ;D
Tilly :wave:
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Yes must post some of ours. I did miss one fab picture (probably never to be repeated) of the ewe lamb climbing onto mum and standing on her back to nibble at the hayrack!
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What a beautiful lamb :love:
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I dont dock. I cull ewes with runny bums/dont keep replacements from them. Worm resistance is genetic. Having said that, I have shedding sheep which are less prone to flystrike.
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Awwww gorgeous! :love: :love:
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I noticed in the current Country small holding magazine (Feb 2012, p19) an article which has Tim Tyne dagging and crutching sheep with........long tails.
So is that the answer? If you keep them long you have to clip hair of the tails?
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Hi,
Some people keep the tails long to protect the udder in very cold areas.
Hope this helps,
Philip
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This is the first time I have read this thread as I don't have sheep and possibly won't ever, but I DO have naturally bobtailed dogs. (Brittanys in the UK, Epagneul Breton in France where they came from)
Owners in our breed have become increasingly interested in breeding bobtails particularly up here ion Scotland as we cannot dock at all. There are ways round it in England, if you have a shooting licence or can prove your bitch is regularly worked on shoots (a shoot captain's certificate) and some people are just not bothering and breeding them with long tails - so we have quite a mixture of tails in the breed.
One of mine has virtually no tail at all - about one digit I reckon; his mother and my older dog have about 2 or 3 digits and my older bitch was docked at birth along with all of her litter mates so I know she doesn't carry the bobtail gene.
It basically means that if you breed a long tail to a bobtail you get about (statistically at least) 50% of each, and if you breed two bobs together that increases to 2 thirds bobs, and 1 third tailed. The added complication is that it is really a short tail gene rather than a strict bobtail one. So we can get all lengths of tail from none at all toa full tail which is about teh length of teh body. ::)
Some breeders are afraid of the gene as a rumour got out that it was related to spina bifida and also that it was lethal - neither is strictly true. Personally I wouldn't mate my no tail to another no tail just in case, but as for the lethal part of it, all it means is that the embryos with a double quantity of the bobtail gene will not implant. They are just never viable. So effectively litters may be smaller.
A number of years a go an eminent geneticist who bred Boxers decided to have a go at introducing the bobtail gene so that he needn't dock - he used corgis - his name is Dr Bruce Cattanach and anyone who is interested in genetics and how he went about his programme can read it here - http://www.steynmere.com/ (http://www.steynmere.com/)
The Kennel Club is very strict about crossbreeds being introduced and usually 7 generations of breeding true to type is the maxim before allowing pups to be registered, but they accepted his bobtailed boxers a lot quicker than that.
If you have time it is extremely interesting and may help with sheep.
Annie
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I noticed in the current Country small holding magazine (Feb 2012, p19) an article which has Tim Tyne dagging and crutching sheep with........long tails.
So is that the answer? If you keep them long you have to clip hair of the tails?
We keep mountain sheep which need their tail to protect them from the harsh weather (traditionally all mountain breeds are kept with long tails). Also they tend to be on harder grazing so are less likely to get mucky bums from too much rich grass. If you keep the tails long, you don't have to clip tails but you do need to be more vigilant in keeping an eye out for maggots.
We do routinely clip the tails of all our ewes when they have lambed.
If we kept lowland sheep, they would be tailed.
Tim's article did also offer a tip on restraining sheep with short tails should their bums need clipping.
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I'm another who doesn't dock, again because I don't have too. Mine are a cross of Shetlands and Castlemilk Moorits.
They have the fluke tail naturally. If I had long tails, I would probably dock.
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We dock our Llanwenogs to just below the fleshy bit on the tail. The Radnors we can do what we like as there is no breed requirement, but tend to not have them longer than the hock. Balwens when we had them weren't docked and we never had flystrike on the tail. Elsewhere, but never the tail. We don't castrate as we breed pure and send most of the lambs off by 6 mths that are not good enough for breeding and ewes and rams are separated. Personally I really struggle to get both testicles in the scrotum before then band goes on! :o
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What a gorgeous lamb!!!
I dock our lambs within 48 hours of birth and any slight discomfort outweighs flystrike.
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[quote author=Remy link=topic=21224.msg202479#msg202479 date=132860738
I've lost a lamb to flystrike and have had to treat many other severely affected ones, including my pony - who's tail I had to totally shave off as the maggots had eaten his entire dock
[/quote]
any idea how/why that happened? was it a mucky tail or humid weather? ouch :wave: :wave: